One strategy that I like to do is to short fraudulent companies and pump and dumps. I learned this from Tim Sykes. For example, I had a nice profit off of shorting the fraud GVBP and covering near 0 after the SEC stepped in and investigated them.
What's this got to do with this blog?
Well, there's this one particular shady company that Tim Sykes has written about, Nutra Pharma Corp. (NPHC). I'm not going to rehash all the reasons why this company is shady....you can read Tim's blog about that (and no, I'm not currently short NPHC...I have no position in it). This blog is about the bullshit product they're pushing....Cobroxin.
Cobroxin is supposedly the "the first over-the-counter pain reliever clinically proven to treat various levels of chronic pain associated with lower back pain, shoulder pain, cramps, migraines, neuralgia and arthritis".
The first? Hardly. Plain ol' Tylenol has been shown in numerous studies to be effective in treating chronic pain.
Of course, that's not what's most bullshit about this product. The product is made from cobra venom.
That's right....this pain reliever is made from cobra venom.
Now, the idea isn't totally absurd. There is some research that suggests that some chemically modified toxins from cobra venom may have pain relieving effects.
What makes Cobroxin absurd, however, is the fact that it's a homeopathic medicine.
Homeopathic Hocus Pocus
Homeopathy is the use of preparations of substances that, when given to a healthy individual, produce the symptoms of the condition that the preparation is intended to treat. For example, if you have a cold, you'll have itchy, watery eyes and thin, clear mucus. A homeopath would give you a remedy prepared from onion extracts, since onions produce similar symptoms. It's based on a "like cures like" philsophy.
Already sounds like hocus pocus, doesn't it? Well, there's more.
Homeopathy is also based on the idea that the homeopathic remedy will retain its activity in the body even when it's been repeatedly diluted past Avogradro's number. That's six million multiplied by one million nearly three times over. So we're talking about diluting something to the point where it's not even there anymore.
Cobra Venom Diluted To Nothing
What this means that if you were to buy Cobroxin, you wouldn't be getting any cobra venom. The venom would be diluted to the point where you're simply taking in water (or whatever was used to dilute the venom). If cobra venom does have pain relieving effects, you certainly won't be getting it from Cobroxin. Any pain relief you get from Cobroxin will simply be a placebo effect.
Cobroxin costs nearly $20 per bottle. That's a pretty expensive placebo. Tap water will give you just as much pain relief.
The fact is, cobra venom is not approved by the FDA for pain relief. Thus, the only way a company can legally sell cobra venom for pain relief is to dilute it to the point where it's not even detectable, as is done with homeopathy. Of course, by doing this, you just got rid of the very ingredient that is supposed to cause the relief.
A Sketchy Company Selling a Sketchy Product
Both Nutra Pharma and their product Cobroxin are sketchy, to say the least. The fact is, homeopathic medicine in general is nothing but bullshit. The research clearly shows that homeopathic medicine is no better than a placebo. Of course, you don't even need research studies to tell you that when you dilute something to nothing, you get nothing.
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21 comments:
Some people have allegedly tried the product - sprayed on a body part - and report an analgesic effect. Are they imagining? Placebo? I doubt it, myself, BWDIK. Homeopathy sounds goofy, to me, but whn it works I wonder! Medicine is in its infancy, eh.
Placebo effects are very powerful. Research shows that the placebo effect is quite common. A number of studies show there are neural mechanisms contributing to its effect, including release of dopamine (a "reward" neurotransmitter) and opioids (which give pain relieving effects).
Placebo effect has nothing to do with imagination. In fact, studies show it has more to do with expectation of benefit. The neural effects that cause the reduction in pain are created from these psychological expectations.
So if what you're saying is true, Cobroxin is just a placebo and doesn't really work..
If it does help pain (for $20, I would hope that it does), what's the chemical providing pain relief?
Unless this marketing campaign is just a big sham to create a fake company and to create money out of air by selling stock, I would suggest you doing a little more research into it.
Raul,
There is a large body of research showing how powerful the placebo effect is. Placebos do actually "work". It's been scientifically demonstrated that a placebo can cause the release of opioids and dopamine in the brain, which, in turn, have pain relieving effects. The mere psychological expectation of pain relief has pain-relieving effects.
Regarding marketing, there are numerous examples in the health and wellness industry of heavily-marketed products that don't have any true biological effects. The marketing success of a product has no relation to whether the product has a true effect. All one has to do is look at the product Airborne....a very popular product which actually does nothing to prevent or treat colds or flu.
It does not take much research to see the affects that cobra venom provides. It has been around for a long time and recently NPHC has found a way to provide it in a consistent pure form which was lacking. So does it really work? Just watch and see, as the testimonials are just beginning to pour in. Bashing something that you never took the time to truly research is reason to suspect that you have some alterior motives, especially when you include Timothy Sykes, who is one of the biggest con man out there imo.
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It does not take much research to see the affects that cobra venom provides.
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Have you actually examined this research?
Most of it involves injection, not topical or oral delivery.
Most of it is of very poor quality, lacking adequate controls, randomization, and various other factors necessary for good research. Most of it would never be published in today's American or European journals. Much of it has been published in Chinese journals which are notorious for bad science.
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It has been around for a long time
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The amount of time something has been around is irrelevant to whether it is effective. People have been stretching before exercise for years and years, despite the fact that stretching does nothing to decrease injury risk. People usually continue to carry strong beliefs in things, in spite of what the evidence indicates. People's beliefs are often so strong that even absolute 100% proof will still not shake people from those beliefs.
If cobra venom or venom components were so good for pain relief, then drug companies would've capitalized on it by now. In fact, Merck had done investigative research into snail venom for pain relief and discontinued the research because it simply didn't work.
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as the testimonials are just beginning to pour in.
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Testimonials are worthless for demonstrating efficacy of a product. There are positive testimonials for all kinds of worthless products, from Airborne to electric foot baths that supposedly draw "toxins" out of your body (when in fact all you're doing is soaking your feet in rusty water). There are positive testimonials for many weight loss products on the market, despite the fact that most of them do little to improve weight loss.
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Bashing something that you never took the time to truly research
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It is apparent that you're the one who has not taken the time to truly research this. You obviously aren't able to discern good science from bad science. You obviously don't understand why randomization and placebo controls are extremely important. You obviously don't know that homeopathic products have been shown in meta-analyses to be no better than a placebo. You obviously don't know that most of the research cited on the Cobroxin site is of very poor quality. I took the time to look at many of these studies, given that I am a scientist myself. You haven't done this, and you don't even have the background to be able to understand what makes good science.
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is reason to suspect that you have some alterior motives,
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My motive is written at the top of this blog....to cut through the B.S. of the health & wellness industry. Cobroxin fits right in with this blog.
James,
On this one you have not done your homework. I will comment more below the snippet pasted in and give you the dose. I did web search on it and first hit had this: http://ezinearticles.com/?Snake-Venom-May-Stop-Arthritis-Pain&id=798223
The next time you see a snake, don't kill it or drive it away. That slithering serpent may save you from the pain of arthritis.
This bizarre revelation comes from Dr. Naftali Primor, research and development manager for Shulov Institute for Sciences Ltd (SIS) in Israel, who said that certain chemicals in snake venom may help treat arthritis - a condition that affects over 46 million people in the United States alone.
"The scientific team that Primor heads at SIS has identified the chemicals in the snake venom of cobras, vipers and rattlers. The company is using this knowledge to make a potent analgesic against chronic pain such as arthritis, and secondary pain caused by other diseases such as cancer. Primor suspects that the venom has therapeutic properties also, but more studies need to be done," according to Britain Israel Communications and Research Center (BICOM).
Here is another study on eye pain: http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1091856/comparing_the_effects_of_cobra_venom.html
James both of these studies and articles predate Cobroxin and have nothing to to with NutraPhrama or marketer Xenacare.
BTW the dose per spray is 5 micrograms of the peptides in the cobravenom. The reason it is called homopaththic is that the FDA told them when they applied for approval that they did not need aproval, the dose was low enough to use the Homopathtic route.
Additionally an Oregon MD Dr. Kim Webster is getting good results with it, his site is http://www.fxmd.com/
The bottom line is that you were factually incorrect when you said it is diluted to nothing, it is 5 micrograms per spray. If you want to expose scams, good. BUT DO YOUR HOMEWORK!
BTW I have no pain but gave some to two friends, one with knee pain who had minor improvement. The other not only had very good relief of elbow arthritis but after stopping its use tpain has never come back after 1 month. This was chronic pain before Cobroxin was used. Nutra says it only works for 92% of people, FYI.
While it is true that common sense would tell you that diluting something to the extent that homeopathic preperations are diluted, should produce a worthless concoction, I have found that some of them do, indeed produce a reaction. (sometimes not favorable) I am as skeptical as they come and had absolutely No faith that a homeopathic medicine would cause any effect on me. But, several of them have, not only done so, but, actually improved the condition for which I took them. They only seem to work on actue conditions and had little effect on chronic ones. I have found the dymptoms sometimes get much worse, and then get better. I was quite amazed, as it really makes no sense. Even though I appreciate your dedication in uncovering B.S. and while I would normally agree that this subject sounds like snake oil (no pun intended) Homeopathics can have some value in medicine. I do not know that Cobroxin is actually a homeopathic preperation, however and may not belong to products of that ilk.
Marie Turco-Moslemian
Marie,
There may be some confusion on the issue of homeopathic aspect of Cobroxin. It is NOT homeopathic in the traditional meaning of it. I just got a box in the mail, and the box says 4x strength on it by Homeopathic board. The only reason it is being sold under Homoepathic rules is that it is low enough concentration to qualify, that is it. It saved them the time and expense of FDA approvals. BTW the FDA recomended it, it was the FDA's idea.
The peptides in cobra toxin are so strong at pain relief very little is needed.
Dear Mr. James BS. What is in it for you to condemn a product that has only been out 2 months and had positive reviews. Have you tested the effects of this product on anyone with arthritis. I don't think most drugs companies want a product that is natural and non addictive with no apparent side effects that is inexpensive. I personally have not tried it yet but have some ordered to try to help friends that are taking many pain killers for their pain from arthritis. If you know so much about what doesn't work then why haven't you invented a cure for arthritis. In this world there are many things that one cannot explain, we have many more failures than triumphs over treating diseases, but for you to condemn a product for which you haven't done any research or trials is very troubling. So what are your motives? Surely it isn't to save someone $20 from trying it to see if it really works. I'll let you know what my friends results are at a later time. Until then may you all have a very Merry Christmas!!
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What is in it for you to condemn a product that has only been out 2 months and had positive reviews.
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I will condemn any nutritional or OTC product that claims to have certain effects, when there is no good science to back up those effects.
There are tons of B.S. nutritional and OTC products out there. The thing that separates the truly effective products from the B.S. products are double-blind, placebo controlled studies. Until Cobroxin meets that requirement, the burden of proof is on the people claiming that is has a benefit.
Positive testimonials are meaningless. There are positive testimonials for all sorts of worthless B.S. out there, including astrology, cellulite removers, faith healing, magnet therapy, reflexology, etc, etc, etc. You cannot rule out the placebo effect with positive testimonials. You can only do that with well-designed scientific studies.
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I don't think most drugs companies want a product that is natural and non addictive with no apparent side effects that is inexpensive.
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Actually, most drug companies would love to have something like this. It is absurd to think that drug companies are not interested in "natural" products. Aspirin is naturally found in white willow bark, yet is sold by many drug companies in various drug formulations. Ephedrine is found in some asthmatic medications, and is naturally found in the Ma Huang herb.
You've also hit on a typical myth here...that somehow "natural" products are inherently safer and/or more effective than "synthetic" products. There are many problems with this type of thinking (which I will address in a future post)...but the fact is that some "natural" products are more dangerous than synthetic products, and there is also not a clear distinct line between what is "natural" and what is "artificial".
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If you know so much about what doesn't work
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I never said it doesn't work. I said there's no evidence that it does. There is a big difference between those two concepts. The gold standard for demonstrating efficacy is the double-blind, placebo controlled trial. Until that type of data is published, any reported effects of Cobroxin cannot be distinguished from placebo, and cannot be distinguished from the other "positive testimonials" that exist for products known to be scientifically B.S.
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In this world there are many things that one cannot explain,
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The unexplained is not inexplicable.
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but for you to condemn a product for which you haven't done any research or trials is very troubling
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Yet it's OK for you to recommend a product for which there are NO double-blind, placebo controlled trials? For which there is little controlled safety data? Doesn't this seem a bit hypocritical for you to make this statement?
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but for you to condemn a product for which you haven't done any research or trials is very troubling
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I've done more research than the people commenting here, including you.
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So what are your motives?
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My motives are very clearly written over at the side of this blog...to expose claims made in the health industry that have little to no scientific backing. The health industry is full of B.S....this blog is to help expose it.
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Until then may you all have a very Merry Christmas!!
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Hope you had a Merry Christmas as well.
I and two other family members have been using Cobroxin since it became available. I have fibromyalgia and arthritis. The other two family members, both have severe, chronic back pain caused by injuries to the spine; and, one also has fibromyalgia. We get considerable relief from pain using Cobroxin. A friend recommended that we try it. I was very skeptical at first. I really did not expect it to work. It sounds so absurd. Thing is, it does work. Are we absolutely 100 percent pain free? No. But it helps immensely to relieve the pain, and greatly improves the quality of our lives. If it was safe to have a stronger dose, I'd want to try it. Maybe we could be 100 percent pain free.
Why not try a stronger dose? The only side effect is a possible headache, apparently.
...And a lighter wallet, of course, but maybe you could be 100% pain free. /sarcasm
I am going to try coboxin as I think that if it helps me get off all the heavy narcotics I am on regardless of whether it is because of the placebo affect, I do not care!!! It cannot have any worse side affects than the narcotics!!! So, if it works just because I think it will, GREAT!!!! I will be the happiest person alive...........
Hi, There is a second thread http://www.thebsdetective.com/2009/10/bullsht-of-day-cobroxin-again.html in which James correct the issue of diluted to noting. Thank you james for that. Also on that thread on a 1-7-2010 post data and a link to a double blind placebo test is provided. IMHO it does indicate that oral administrated it does work.
Yea, I just love those heavy duty BIG PHARMA drugs like Vicodin, Oxicotin or maybe Dilauded...studies show they work...and after surgery they serve a purpose...but the side effects of any of the usual pharma BS...just listen to the disclaimers on tv for minor drugs...the cure is worse than the disease...they cover up the pain but never heal the problem. I know Bee stings work for arthritis, why not Cobra venom? Dr's gave my Mom every drug imaginable to help her after chemo, but medical marajuana was all that worked...Dr's said "placebo"...which by the way, only works on some of the people some of the time...anyway, if I find something that seems to work (Glucosomine/Chondroitin) or Cobroxin because it works for my friend, and it works for me but you tell me it's a scam and really doesn't work...sorry, you're the fool for not listening to people who've tried it...fu*k the double blinds...nature and tribal potions have always been ahead of big pharma science anyway and most commercial pharmaceuticals have the forest/jungle to thank for their existence...let the marketplace and each individual decide for his/her self...btw, thanks for pointing out your concerns, doc, you do provide a valuable service and I agree with most of what you say...but as a child of the 60's, I ingested various psychotropic (recreational) drugs, yet I've been lectured to by people (not Dr's) who have never tried anything stronger than coffee, who think they know everything acid/mescaline/peyote/psylocybin, et. al.,..and they have no clue...until you've done it, you can only speak of your experience watching those who have tried it. I would suggest that you try Cobroxin, do some lab tests to see what's really in it. I havent tried it yet, but I think I will after hearing all the positive first person testimony on this page. So, until you, or someone, does a thorough "scientific" study there is no scientific proof that it does NOT work...so, regardless of any study, if I think it works for me, I'll continue to use it and so will most people...We're not scientists, we are in pain, and being pragmatic, we do what works, damn the studies. If this stuff is junk, the people using it will know long before the scientists finish their double blind studies. Still, you may be spot on Doc, so buyer beware.
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but the side effects of any of the usual pharma BS...
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And you think "natural" products are somehow free of side effects? You're fooling yourself if you think that's true. In fact, there's many instances where "natural" products can be just as harmful, if not more harmful. In fact, this is going to be the topic of a future blog post.
I'm amazed how people will point to the side effects of drugs, yet then have no problem dosing themselves with an UNTESTED product for which there is little safety data. They assume that it's safe and free of side effects just because it's "natural".
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they cover up the pain but never heal the problem.
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And you think Cobroxin will somehow "heal" the problem? Whether Cobroxin's effects are placebo or not, either way, it's only "covering up" the pain. It's not actually changing the condition that causes the pain in the first place.
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but you tell me it's a scam and really doesn't work...sorry, you're the fool for not listening to people who've tried it
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Actually, you're the fool for not reading what I've written. I didn't say Cobroxin was a scam. I said there's no good evidence supporting its safety & efficacy. There's a big difference between those two claims.
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fu*k the double blinds
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In other words, fu*k the only way to truly know if something is effective beyond a placebo effect. Is that what you're saying?
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nature and tribal potions have always been ahead of big pharma science anyway
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Another statement for which you have no evidence. Again, you are making the ASSUMPTION that "natural" is somehow better. But there is no evidence that this is true, and in some cases, "natural" is just as problematic as anything that is synthesized.
And tribal potions? Are you kidding me? Do tribal potions extend the lives of people who have cancer? Do tribal potions halt the progression of and destroy cancer cells? Do tribal potions allow Type I diabetics to live?
If you think "tribal potions" are ahead of modern medicine, than the next time you're in a major car accident with major injuries, why don't you just refuse the modern surgery and let nature heal you? Or if you come down with cancer, why don't you refuse the chemotherapy and find yourself a tribal potion to take care of that cancer? Or if you have a child with Type I diabetes, why don't you just refuse insulin treatment and go to your tribal potions or let nature take its course?
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...let the marketplace and each individual decide for his/her self..
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Well the "marketplace" says that "Airborne" prevents colds. But it does no such thing. Never underestimate the power of mass delusion.
You're simply committing the "argumentum ad populum" or "appeal to popularity" fallacy here....that because something is popular, then it must be true.
www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-popularity.html
The popularity of a product or concept has no relevance to whether that product is truly effective or if there is truth behind the concept.
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I think I will after hearing all the positive first person testimony
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I can turn on any infomercial on TV and get "positive first person testimony" from all kinds of worthless garbage, from "ab blasters" to diet pills that don't do a thing. Positive testimony is meaningless because there is no controlled environment, so there is no way to know if it was the product that was working, or something else.
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So, until you, or someone, does a thorough "scientific" study there is no scientific proof that it does NOT work...
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Now you are committing the fallacy known as the "shifting of the burden of proof".
www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/burden-of-proof.html
In general, the burden of proof lies on the individuals making the affirmative claim....which in this case, is the people making the claim that Cobroxin is efficiacious.
You generally can't "prove" a negative. In the case of Cobroxin, the "null hypothesis" is that there is no difference between Cobroxin and a placebo. You can't "prove" the null hypothesis. The null hypothesis is the hypothesis that is accepted unless proven otherwise (similar to "innocent until proven guilty").
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If this stuff is junk, the people using it will know long before the scientists finish their double blind studies.
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Actually, people continue to use "junk" products all the time. Never underestimate the power of belief and the mind.
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On this one you have not done your homework.
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On the contrary, I have done my homework. You should read my follow-up post on Cobroxin here:
www.thebsdetective.com/2009/10/bullsht-of-day-cobroxin-again.html
Here I closely examine many of the studies that are presented on the Cobroxin website.
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http://ezinearticles.com/?Snake-Venom-May-Stop-Arthritis-Pain&id=798223
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Again, you need to read my follow-up post on Cobroxin. I state there that cobra venom components may have analgesic effects. However, whether the Cobroxin formulation itself actually has analgesic effects is a separate issue.
You see, you can't just point to studies that show cobra venom peptides may produce analgesia. You have to show that Cobroxin, in is current formulation, can do this. Just because venom peptides may have an effect doesn't mean anything. For example, if the studies that show an effect mainly use injection as delivery, than this has no relevance to a product that is applied topically or orally. Also, the dose of the particular active component is important, and there is no evidence that Cobroxin has an adequate dose of whatever the active component may be (and Cobroxin doesn't even identify what the active component would be....it just reads snake venom as its ingredient).
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that they did not need aproval, the dose was low enough to use the Homopathtic route.
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In other words, they didn't need to provide evidence of safety and efficacy.
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The bottom line is that you were factually incorrect
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Again, read my follow-up post on Cobroxin where I corrected this. But the vast number of other criticisms still remain.
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BUT DO YOUR HOMEWORK!
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I did....I actually went carefully through many of the studies on Cobroxin's website....something many of you here probably haven't done.
A little light relief: I don't know whether you have ANADIN on your side of the pond, but the advert clearly states: "Nothing acts faster than ANADIN".
Haha, thanks for that Nigel
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